Curse

Isileth · Jan 02, 2008, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by StelardActek

I can't say I really agree Wu, though I see your argument. In my mind, there's a difference between missing out on a hat and missing out on a title. Hats are there for people who are around at the time, and are not really analogous to anything else. Hats are hats, in other words. Titles, however, all share certain characteristics. You get points by doing something. Get enough points, you get a title. Get a ridiculous amount of points, you get the maximum title.
The only differences are the survivor title and LDoA, both of which you can disqualify for. I'm not sure what could be done about LDoA, or even if something should be done about it; that is outside the scope of this thread. But survivor can be fixed, can be fixed easily, and there's no /real/ reason I can see that it shouldn't be fixed to be in line with the other titles. So far the only reason I've seen is to placate the people who already have deleted a character to get LS on their main, and while wishing no offence to those people, that isn't a real reason the rest of us should be denied.

QFT

Just because other players have already suffered under a bad mechanic, is not reason enough that everyone else should have to.

TaCktiX · Jan 02, 2008, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Just because other players have already suffered under a bad mechanic, is not reason enough that everyone else should have to.

Further QFT. Guild Wars has been landmark among MMOs in the fact that the development team has actively tried to fix bad mechanics when they could, even if it meant going against what they said initially (extra storage is a shining example of this). Why ArenaNet should change their ethos now for the sake of some "but I suffered through restarting my main" ego-trips is beyond me.

wu is me · Jan 02, 2008, 04:42 AM // 04:42

wait... what are you guys saying? That survivor the title it's self is broken? Or that its a problem that people were disqualified from the title before it's existence?

Personally, I see nothing wrong with the functionality of the title as it is now. But i do believe there would be less greif if the title was implemented right from the beginning.

But think about the implications if the title were altered so that any character could achieve it regardless of whether or not they've died.

Would i be right in saying that every1 who made a character before the title, and fail to remake after it's existence, feels cheated of a title?
It's been a good 2 years since then, and all the while, people have made characters, spent some good times with them, found out about the title, then deleted their character( unless they had a friend's guidance, and intensive babysitting ).

If the survivor title were altered to make it possible for old characters to achieve it, wouldn't it be cheating the people who were brave enough to make the sacrifice?

Yes it is broken, but somethings.. you really can't fix that easily

As i've said before:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wu Is Me

Yea i think the best way to please every1 is to make a title Mutually exclusive to LDOA and Survivor.

Make a new thread someone?

Isileth · Jan 02, 2008, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

wait... what are you guys saying? That survivor the title it's self is broken? Or that its a problem that people were disqualified from the title before it's existence?

The problem is that most old chars "failed" it long before it was even added.
Meaning you either miss it, or delete your char.
Having it changed so you dont have to delete your char, yet can still have a shot at it, would in my eyes be much better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

But think about the implications if the title were altered so that any character could achieve it regardless of whether or not they've died.

I have to ask. What implications?
More people have the title? Is that a problem?
As it is, the title doesnt hold any value. It can be achieved through farming, exploits (at the start), letting others play while you stand back just for the xp, mapping the moment you look in trouble etc.

Even going past that, a lot of people I know with it failed and tried again several times. The only difference is they had nothing to lose.

So the titles, as with all but the game effecting ones, are there for the player.
It doesnt matter if someone else has it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

Would i be right in saying that every1 who made a character before the title, and fail to remake after it's existence, feels cheated of a title?
It's been a good 2 years since then, and all the while, people have made characters, spent some good times with them, found out about the title, then deleted their character( unless they had a friend's guidance, and intensive babysitting ).

If the survivor title were altered to make it possible for old characters to achieve it, wouldn't it be cheating the people who were brave enough to make the sacrifice?

Again, just because others have suffered through a bad mechanic, everyone else should have to?

The fact is you are admitting its a bad mechanic, even a broken one.

Should we not improve bungee cords because its not fair on those who died using crappy ones?

Having established there is a problem with it, should we then not look to see how it can be improved?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

Yes it is broken, but somethings.. you really can't fix that easily

And some things can be.

This is one that is easier to fix.

TaCktiX · Jan 02, 2008, 03:06 PM // 15:06

I'm sorry if changing this to something logical and more in spirit of the title system would shrink some masochists' e-peen by a little bit. Grenth forbid that we preach the heresy of making the title more appealing to the average player of GW.

Dougal Kronik · Jan 02, 2008, 03:22 PM // 15:22

/signed

This definitely needs to changed. Seeing how the majority of the community has been asking for this since titles were introduced.

MithranArkanere · Jan 02, 2008, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Any stated reason against it has ben proven invalid. So, there are no reason not to make it in a way or another. Whatever the way it is, it should be made.

TheRaven · Jan 02, 2008, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Has A-net voiced any official opinion on this issue yet? I too would love to see this changed. My 2 main characters were made after the survivor title was implemented, but I was new to the game at the time and both of them died before I realized there was even such a thing as titles.

I'm not asking for an easy way to regain this title. I agree with they naysayers that it wouldn't be fair to those that sweated and worked hard to achieve their titles, but we all know that a lot of legendary survivors didn't work hard at all. They had a friend power level them or paid a runner to get them the title. There are a lot of cheezy methods that the lazy can use to get the title, so I don't see how opening up the title to those of us who want a shot at it can hurt it further.

Add a quest or something to the game that will allow older characters the option of "restarting". Don't make it a freebie. This quest should be difficult. Perhaps something like "your character must clear the UW 5 times and fow 5 times" (something that's available to everyone no matter which campaigns you own). At that point Grenth recognizes your worth and gives you the option to reset your death counter once whenever you choose by kneeling at any Grenth shrine.

Loviatar · Jan 02, 2008, 06:23 PM // 18:23

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

As it is, the title doesnt hold any value. It can be achieved through farming, exploits (at the start), letting others play while you stand back just for the xp, mapping the moment you look in trouble etc.

then why are you (and the others) so literally *desparate* to get it?

literally desparate for a no value title=pathetic

do you really think it will help you in GW2?

MithranArkanere · Jan 02, 2008, 07:31 PM // 19:31

I probably won't go for it with any character but my main character... well, and a couple new character I have that already has it, but I don't care about them having it, I want it in my main character.

Why? Completion. Just that.
Why to get all elites when there where no Elite Hunter Title? Completion.
Why to explore all the map whn there where no Cartographer titles? Completion.
Why to buy all non-elite and PvE skills of all campaigns when there are no title for that? Completion.

The main reason I play GW is because every character can have everything. All skills, all heroes, all missions, all quests done, all outposts...

Everyone should have access to everything. Without having to delete characters.

dts720666 · Jan 02, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

All of this debate about the survivor title nearly vanishes if you just make the title account based. That way, you don't have to delete your old characters, but can make a new one, and get survivor with it, and in so doing, get survivor on your old character too.

MithranArkanere · Jan 02, 2008, 10:59 PM // 22:59

It's not the same to get a Survivor with a Mesmer, Dervish or Monk than with an assassin or warrior.

It's not like identifying items, using consumables, standing in the rings or opening chests, it does matter who gets it.

TaCktiX · Jan 03, 2008, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

It's not the same to get a Survivor with a Mesmer, Dervish or Monk than with an assassin or warrior.

It's not like identifying items, using consumables, standing in the rings or opening chests, it does matter who gets it.

QFT.

My Necromancer, having finished most content in all the campaigns, will have a more interesting time at it than my Elementalist, who is starting out of Ascalon. Granted they're both casters, but one has over 7.5 million experience, the other is yet to crack 15k.

Isileth · Jan 03, 2008, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

then why are you (and the others) so literally *desparate* to get it?

literally desparate for a no value title=pathetic

do you really think it will help you in GW2?

And then right in that same post

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

So the titles, as with all but the game effecting ones, are there for the player.
It doesnt matter if someone else has it.

I was replying to someone saying there would be implications if more players had the title. My point was the title doesnt effect anyone else, its there as a reward for the player.

I dont play to brag to others, I dont care if I have nothing of value. Im there for fun.
I would like to be able to attempt survivor on my old chars.

Hanok Odbrook · Jan 03, 2008, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Why? Completion. Just that.
Why to get all elites when there where no Elite Hunter Title? Completion.
Why to explore all the map whn there where no Cartographer titles? Completion.
Why to buy all non-elite and PvE skills of all campaigns when there are no title for that? Completion.

Let me add to this:
Why to play and avoid dying when there is no Survivor title? To avoid failure and achieve success, regardless.

One of my earliest characters had zero deaths up to level 15 in Kryta before I got clumsy - long before the title was implemented. I played normally as I did with my seven other starting characters, all of whom had reached varying levels and areas of the game before an error on my part equated to failure. I even took every single one of my characters into the low level PvP arenas to map clear those areas. Not one of the first deaths occurred in any of the arenas (and no, I did not log out before failure either - simply lucky enough to get grouped with a good team).

I once met someone who had the title on an original character. So to say that original Tyrians had no chance at the title is false. The only difference between him and me was that he never played in the PvP arenas; not because of dying but simply because he had no interest in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

I was replying to someone saying there would be implications if more players had the title. My point was the title doesnt effect anyone else, its there as a reward for the player.

You are exactly right. It was created as a reward for the players who, then and now, were able to achieve that feat with ZERO deaths. This is why the title is neither a bad mechanic nor is broken, just as LDoA is neither a bad mechanic nor broken. These titles were created for a specific purpose as a "present" or "reward" for a specific type of player, just as the new green drops in Pre-Searing are. There is nothing wrong with that.

I would love to be able to achieve LDoA for every character. I would love to be able to collect those green Pre-Sear drops for my characters. Since I can't should I complain that the title is unfair and broken and demand that it be changed so my old characters can go back and go for the title? After all, I too am a completionist and want all my characters to have achieved everything possible. But even I realize that some things just aren't that way, nor should they be. There are many more important battles to fight on the casual player front than these two titles.

I would most surely love to be able to complete the Magni tournament with my purely defensive characters playing them as they are meant to be. But even I realize that in order to have these characters complete the quest and tournament, I have to completely change their builds and the way I have played them in order to do so. Unfair? Maybe. Broken mechanic? Well, more so than either the Survivor title or LDoA is.

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace

RotteN · Jan 03, 2008, 11:35 AM // 11:35

nice piece of text Hanok

but sorry, the "some things just aren't that way, nor should they be." realy doesn't fly for online games. We're talking about program code here, they CAN be that way.

Seeing this thread a lot of people would realy appreciate having a shot at survivor title with their (old) main character. I have yet to see anyone give a decent argument against it.

Hanok Odbrook · Jan 03, 2008, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

nice piece of text Hanok

but sorry, the "some things just aren't that way, nor should they be." realy doesn't fly for online games. We're talking about program code here, they CAN be that way.

Seeing this thread a lot of people would realy appreciate having a shot at survivor title with their (old) main character. I have yet to see anyone give a decent argument against it.

Except that the very purpose of the title argues against it. The fact that LDoA and Survivor are mutually exclusive, and Survivor cannot be achieved in Pre-Searing are examples of the point I was trying to make. I would love the mechanics of the game to be changed to see a "Surviving Legendary Defender of Ascalon", but again, that goes against the purpose of those titles. Just as Tyrian Grandmaster Cartographer is for those who map clear Tyria, and not Cantha or Elona, Survivor is for those who play the game and reach a certain XP level without dying once - ever in that time.

Just as LDoA is for those players who have kept characters in Pre-Searing and have spent the time death-leveling to Level 20.
Just as the green drops in Pre-Searing were added as a reward to all players who keep characters in Pre and continue to play in that area with them.
Just as the Divine Aura is a reward for those who bought the CE edition of Prophecies; the Kuunavang mini & special dances were rewards for the CE Factions owners; and the Varesh mini and special dances were rewards for the Nightfall CE owners.
Just as the Pre-order weapons/foci was a reward to the players who bought the pre-order packs.
Just as each festival hat is a reward to the player who was at a final event for that specific festival.

These are not bad mechanics nor are they broken mechanics, they are simply special little rewards for a limited number of specific players in the game. Survivor is the same way. This title was created specifically to reward those players at the time who actually played the game and avoided dying, even though there was no "incentive" not to previously. This title was created and is meant for players who take a character from Level 1 to Level 20, and then to virtual Level 50 and Level 100, and do so without that character dying once. Just the same as Tyrian GMC is not meant for those players who map Cantha or Elona, Survivor is simply not meant as a reward to be given to characters with deaths.

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace

TaCktiX · Jan 03, 2008, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Your logic is missing one critical component: You don't un-map sections of Tyria. Or more rightfully, you don't lose your exploration progress if something goes wrong. I have made the point before and you have not acknowledged nor rebutted it: Survivor and LDoA are the most untitle-titles in the game. Unlike every single other one, you can lose progress towards them. Granted LDoA is at a specific cutoff that is NOT possibly a freak accident (crap, I lagged into that mob and I died), but Survivor is not that way.

Some people never had a chance at it because the Guild Wars paved the way for NOT penalizing people that heavily for dying. Survivor more than likely was not on the mind of people who were playing the game at first, happy that Death Penalty could be worked off or removed entirely.

Some people never had a chance at it because they bought the game and started playing out of the box without staring at every entry on GuildWiki (I personally didn't bookmark the site until 2 months after I had GW). Naturally, noobs die.

Some people get hit with lag spikes or random PUG stupidity. Oh bummer, start over or hope another character can get it. I, too, am in this camp.

And I know those three groups of people who got screwed out of the only title you can unintentionally lose progress on would jump at the chance to give it another shot. Just because the death counter doesn't say zero does not mean the same amount of effort isn't being put in to achieve the title.

Isileth · Jan 03, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

I should also point out many old chars will have died due to the auto deaths in missions still counting as a death at that point.

It was only later that it was changed. So another reason its not a great mechanic. Along with all the problems like lag its very easy to fail it while doing nothing wrong yourself.

Hanok Odbrook · Jan 03, 2008, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

I have made the point before and you have not acknowledged nor rebutted it: Survivor and LDoA are the most untitle-titles in the game. Unlike every single other one, you can lose progress towards them. Granted LDoA is at a specific cutoff that is NOT possibly a freak accident (crap, I lagged into that mob and I died), but Survivor is not that way.

Which is what makes these two titles the most unique and interesting out of the entire lot. Heck, Survivor is probably the best title solely because it is achievable simply by playing the game - no extra grind involved at all. For a game that was built around eliminating grind, Survivor is the one title that fits in that purpose out of all the current options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

Some people never had a chance at it because the Guild Wars paved the way for NOT penalizing people that heavily for dying. Survivor more than likely was not on the mind of people who were playing the game at first, happy that Death Penalty could be worked off or removed entirely.

And finally we have some tangible penalty for dying. To sidetrack a bit, I always found the current DP annoying and fairly useless. Personally, the time wasted running back from a rez shrine was more of a penalty than the % reduction in HP or En. Couple that with the fact that even in Prophecies, the DP you got could be removed from God Avatars, and with each subsequent release, more and more options were put in game to further eliminate DP without actually removing the mechanic from the game just shows how much a waste the current system is.

I would have much rather have Anet save time and resources by simply eliminating the DP altogether and focusing on fixing graphical glitches, quest bugs, and working on the back end to eliminate things like lag and such, instead of creating things that further invalidate the DP as it is.

That being said, even with all the current DP removers in the game (then and now), I never changed the way I played, and am actually glad there is at least one thing in this game that gives us a concrete and tangible consequence of failure - loss of one single title for dying. When you consider everything else in the game world, still a rather small, insignificant penalty to pay for failure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

Some people never had a chance at it because they bought the game and started playing out of the box without staring at every entry on GuildWiki (I personally didn't bookmark the site until 2 months after I had GW). Naturally, noobs die.

Some people get hit with lag spikes or random PUG stupidity. Oh bummer, start over or hope another character can get it. I, too, am in this camp.

I never knew about Guild Wiki until stumbling upon it some time after Factions was released - well over a year after I began playing (the final beta weekend of Prophecies). I too have survived things like lag, bad PUGs, and even total screwups on my part just to have my butt saved in the nick of time. Another reason why this title is so special - you must have a bit of luck involved, as well as skill.

And even with that knowledge in mind, long before the title came into being, and ever since thereafter, I have not changed the way I have played the game. I still play each and every character to survive each and every encounter I take them on, regardless of the number of deaths they currently have, because in the end, dying equates failure in this game, whether there be a tangible result of the death or not. Many people have always played that way, and had no need of any "incentive" like a title not to play that way. I currently have three perma-pre characters that I have no intention of bringing to Post. I still play these characters with zero deaths and will continue to do so even though I have no shot at getting Survivor for them. Why? Because of that challenge of completing the entirety of Pre-Searing without dying once is challenge enough - the title is entirely inconsequential. The same with mapping with the characters. There is no Pre-Cartographer title, yet I still will clear the entirety of the map (with the exception being the Academy of course), simply because that is how I (and many others) have always played the game.

On another point, some players will never have the chance at the Legendary titles simply because they do not own all three campaigns. Surely they should not be penalized simply because they cannot afford to buy all three games, or because they do not like the mechanics of one game in particular. Certainly, taking this into consideration, shouldn't the Legendary titles be changed to allow these players the ability to complete them? And should not the Vanquisher title be changed to allow those who vanquish in normal mode to also get the title?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaCktiX

And I know those three groups of people who got screwed out of the only title you can unintentionally lose progress on would jump at the chance to give it another shot. Just because the death counter doesn't say zero does not mean the same amount of effort isn't being put in to achieve the title.

And just because it does not say zero, it should mean a player ought to have the opportunity to share a title with a player who achieved that feat with a counter that does say zero. The Survivor title is not simply a means of checkmarking the accumulation of a certain amount of XP, it is the means of someone showing that they took a new Level 1 character and played through the game in whatever means they enjoyed most and did so without that character dying once. And that is a slightly greater feat than taking any current Level 20 and farming/grinding for one million XP.

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace